Minor Members

[Pendance]

ive noticed tht there is not much info on the minor members of the shinsengumi, does anyone know where i could find a ste that could teach me more about them , shinsengumi hq doesnt have what im looking for and ive googled it with no avail. can anyone offer some knowledge :__;

[Umeko]

Jeez, you're right!

Most contemporary literature, manga & movies feature mostly the so-called Sheiken dojo gang and Saitou Hajime. Occasionally, they'll focus on Serizawa Kamo (former Chief of the SSG, assassinated by the Tennen Rishin Ryu faction) & Itou Kashiitaro (military advisor to the SSG).

Historically, the fifth captain (I think his name is Takeda... you may check out the site Shinsengumihq.com for the details) was assassinated for having pro-Ishin views. Obviously, the post of captain for the other patrols were fairly volatile, with select members having to commit seppuku over misconduct or face certain permanant ( & violent) removal from their office.

[Pendance]

yeah thts true, but you'd think that out of (a site said about 300 or more) members, that there would be more info on the minors, i mean they could have been just as important ^_^

[Umeko]

Given the turbulent times then, it was inevitable some names and records would be lost. Faced with imminent defeat, it is standard millitary policy to destroy important records. Having them fall into enemy hands is a definite disaster. You don't want the enemy chasing up leads to capture your leaders and harassing their friends and family.

It is interesting to note that most of the SSG histrical accounts was taken from Nagakura Shinpachi's memoirs (written after the Bakumatsu) and other accounts from officials in the Aizu or Ishin factions. This could be a reason why most of the accounts focus on more prominent members of the leadership or on the Sheiken Dojo gang.

Most of the names were destined to be lost in the dust of the Bakumatsu. I mean, average samurai guy joins SSG, gets killed in battle, if he's lucky, he'd get a decent burial... any family or friends mourn him for a while, then move on. If he didn't do anything outstanding, history omits his name. Of course, some of the men who had less than glorious pasts may have used another name to join the group. ;D

Men who fell into this catergory include Saitou. (Saitou was rumored to have killed a member of a prominent family in a duel. To escape punishment, he sought refuge with Aizu and later joined the SSG under the name Saitou Hajime. His real name is rumored to be Yamaguchi.)

Okita was rumored to have used his father's family name to join. His family was a matriachical one, with him being registered on his mother's family register as a Hanamura instead.

Similarly, historians have a similiar situation trying to get a decent fix on the number of Dalforce volunteers who fought in the battle of Malaya, WWII. The Dalforce secretary fell in battle and the name list was lost or destroyed. Historical British records state about 150 rifles were issued to the group. However, many more volunteers had to source for their own rifles and weapons. Other estimates put it about 500 or more, and the death toll remains unknown to this day.

Another complication is that most of the volunteers, both men and women, used assumed names and often lied about their ages to join. Teens of 12 or 13 claim to be 16 (minimum req'd age set by the Brits) and grandpas claim to be only in their 30's. Interviewing any surviving members can't help much as they used their aliases. Besides, most don't like to talk about it. Then you factor in the highly mobile population in Malaya... They did not have a family register system as they did in Japan.

I guess I've illustrated why it is often difficult to find accurate records of paramilitary groups staffed by volunteers and lost the battle.

[Gentatsu]

It is interesting how history's truths may of been changed or altered over time. For example, the Mimawarigumi may have not killed Ryoma Sakamoto. My historian college friend in Japan said that Imai Nobuo, the Vice Commander of the Mimawarigumi, when in the Meiji era was torchered about the truth of Sakamoto. He possibly made up the lie that the Mimawarigumi did it.

Another option to this myth is that the Satsuma Clan thought that Sakamoto was too radical and they killed him. Then the Shinsengumi came along to defend him! When it was all over, Harada Sanosuke left his shoe and saya there making the Choshu believe the Shinsengumi killed Sakamoto.

[Umeko]

Torture, one of the most unreliable ways of extracting information. Creative persuasion is much more efficient & less messy, unless you are dealing with some total fanatic (in which case, you can save your time & energy with a length of rope, knife or bullet, take your pick. just jking ;D)

Righto. I have heard about that theory where Sakamoto was killed by his own guys because he is fairly radical (in PMK, he is just way too radical, I'm surprised that they let him stay alive that long. He oughta have met his end fairly quick with the devil may care attitude about the Miburou.) Well, historically, he may have been two steps ahead of his time. The nail that sticks out will get hammered down, permanently.

Wait, did you say the Shinsengumi were defending Sakamoto? Wierd... However, the idea of Sano purposedly leaving his shoe at the scene to incriminate his own is a little too far-fetched. That is a rotten tactic .

The proper way of proceeding should be letting the Choushu find out that Satsuma did in Sakamoto, convince them that Katsura is next on the list, then let the two parties kill each other off...

When catching tigers, it is best if you let the tigers fight each other. So I don't buy the leaving-your-shoe-behind ruse. Unless for compelling reasons unknown, Sanosuke had no choice but to leave his shoe and saya behind.

[Gentatsu]

Well I did say it was a theory. What I meant was that Sano left his shoe and sheathe there by accident!

[Umeko]

Hi Pendance,

Found another source for info about the SSG guys, including some lesser known persons.

Here's the link:

www.shinsengumi-no-makoto.net/

Hope it helps you.

[Pendance]

thank you guys for everything! ^-^